Ellen, in my dialog with Kreigh down in the ask the expert section here, I asked him about having schools do strength testing as part of the enrollment process for truck driving as many companies require this to be hired. He said to ask you how the EEOC comes into this for women.

I do not know the EEOC laws perhaps as well as I should, is there something in them that prohibits women from being strength tested or is there different laws for the genders? I seem to remember something about there being differing requirements a long time ago but have oldtruckers ya know....this is something I want to find out for the women newbees/wannabees I work with.

Thanks,
Sandy

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The only stupid question is the one you do not ask...

Sandy, Barb Kampbell at The Trucker is currently writing an article about this very topic. I'll be interested in reading what she learned in her research.

According to Jeana Hysell, our safety expert, the weight lifting requirement is a carrier standard. She said that the industry standard used to 50 Lbs but that it has been abolished and the industry standard is "Needs to be fit."

You look under 49 CFR 391.41 For Physical Qualifications for Drivers. I don't believe that there are gender differences for physical requirements.

As far as the EEOC, they are only looking for violations that might require their intervention if the qualifications seem to favor one group or another. They don't set the rules for physical qualifications.

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Ellen Voie
President/CEO
Member 10002-I
Women In Trucking, Inc.

I find it a rather odd conundrum... a truck driver, who by the very nature of their job are sedentary, are unable to exercise or lift weights, to lift 75 lbs above your head. I don't have a problem with it, but I am overweight.... but then you have the new thing where they are going to be measuring necks, so if your necks is too large then your out as well? If you are able to lift 75 lbs, at least a female any way is usually going to be overweight and have a larger neck. So no female drivers allowed now?

I know my company did not hire a woman who was slender, but could not pu the weight. My friend who was in the same orientation class, is only 4'10". She was able to pick up the weight, but had to pause to bring it all the way up because she is so short, they almost did not allow that! Plus they require you to be able to climb into a trailer without any assistance. Wrong! I can climb into a trailer if need be, but that is extremely dangerous. I use a step ladder and I'm 5'6". I resent the fact that they make you do something so inherently dangerous with no need. Even when climbing up to change the windshield wipers or clearance lights, I use the step ladder. Why ask a driver to do something so dangerous?

I am all for not lowering standards, but it is a job and they are supposed to be able to allow you to do your job with SOME accomadations... It's not like your trying to drag or carry a body out of a burning building you know? This requirement of having to lift 75 lbs is ridiculous! It has been 8 yrs since I had to actually unload a trailer.

Companies are only hiring those they think are fit, problem is, they then contribute to the unhealthy lifestyle with ridiculous schedules where you have no time to stop to even use the bathroom!

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Thanks Ellen, I have had several women who have had to be able to lift 75#s repeatedly and carry it so many feet down a hall in a strength testing situation. While I understand the need to be sure a driver is 'fit' and able to do all aspects of the job such as climbing in the trailer, pulling the hood etc., I have to agree with Impala that in these times it is not often that we have to unload a trailer if ever.

It makes me wonder if this could be used in discriminatory ways to prohibit women from becoming drivers or to at least intimidate them from doing so. Ability to lift weight over one's head is not indicitive of being 'fit' IMO...it uses different sets of muscles say than a runner would have, or a cyclist...unless the woman was a body builder, then she most likely would not be able to do the test and pass.

JMO
Sandy

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The only stupid question is the one you do not ask...

http://www.thetrucker.com/News/Stories/2010/1/8/Driversundergoingmorephysicaltestingbeforegettinghiredrejected.aspx

Read Barb's article in "The Trucker" and it will help you understand the lifting issue better. It's a very comprehensive article.

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Ellen Voie
President/CEO
Member 10002-I
Women In Trucking, Inc.

Very good article! I am not referring to trucking jobs that actually require a person to do the mentioned types of work. I am referring to driving positions that only require you to drive? My company did not hire the slender woman because she could not pick up the weight even though she was a member of a team? I have been here over 2.5 years and have yet to have to load/unload a truck, especially anything over 50 lbs! In fact I have not unloaded/loaded in 8 years for crying out loud.

I am becoming more and more disillusioned with the trucking industry. It is fast becoming a "nanny" state! I am sick of it! They are not allowed to not hire people because of skin color, gender, sexual orientation, religion, disability etc. So now they are using arbitrary criteria to rule out perfectly fine drivers to keep wages down and constantly perpetuate the myth of a driver shortage so they can bring drivers in from other countries thus bringing down the wages again! The next people to be ruled out of a job will be those that smoke, drink, exercise outside, ride motorcyles/atv's/horses, drive a sports car, have kids/pets all in the name that each and everything can have a case made that it either distracts the driver, is a risk for employing that person etc. For crying out loud, it has to stop somewhere! I dunno, maybe I'm just complaining. Seems to me that if you can be a Dr or nurse and be overweight with high blood pressure, diabetes and many of the other medical conditions that is listed in CVS2010, and they are allowed to still work, then why are they discriminating against drivers? All of those medical conditions treated do not cause any more risk than the doctor, nurse, or 4-wheeler working! Ok, getting off the soap box now! Sorry for the rant!

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I would like your opinion on whether you think that strength testing is a form of discrimination.

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Ellen Voie
President/CEO
Member 10002-I
Women In Trucking, Inc.

I could imagine what would happen if they did this to triaxle drivers as I work with guys that can't even lift as much as i can .There isn't a thing wrong with their driving skills though .

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just a bucket truck driver .member #10829-D

Ellen,
You have asked a valid and important question....is it discrimination? And in my opinion, NO! FMCSA set minimum standards for drvier qualifications. Companies are allowed to set their own standards for hiring criteria. Whether it be for workman comp issues, or cost related to health insurance, companies can set their own hiring criteria.

Of course, a flat bedding and household goods are more physically demanding and their strength tests should be more physically demanding. It is important that drivers who do these jobs are physically able to do the other aspects of the job such as tarping loads, throwing chains, carrying refridgerators and sofas up two flights of steps.

Normal van driving jobs, well in my opinion a driver still must be able to handle what the company asks. If that means that a particular load has several stops and there is no dock...the driver may be required to move the items to the rear of the trailer. (We had this happen with industrial washers...we had to slide them to the back of the trailer). If they cant handle the physical nature, well then they cant meet all aspects of the job.

In this economy companies are doing what they can to save money. I have heard that some are no longer paying lumper fees..and well, the driver is the one doing the unloading. If tehy cant do the physical part and the company does not pay lumper fees how does the load get delivered?

Anyway, basically what it comes down to is this....as long as the physical strength tests are equal for men and women, are reasonable with what the job requirements dictate, and are administered fairly, then no it is not discrimination. If you apply for a job as a computer programmer but dont have the skills to the job...well you dont get hired. If you apply for a job as a truck driver but dont have the skills to do the job...well you dont get hired!

Truck driving is not just about driving a truck. There are many different aspects to the job. Opening hoods, climbing into trailers to sweep them out or dispose of trash, climbing on the motor to change a wiper blade or clearance light. Physical strength is required to do the job...and physical strength testing is required to ensure that those hired can do all aspects of the job.

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(Member I'd 10489 D). If you sit and wait for all the good things in life to come to you...and never have to go through bad times...how do you know you got what you were waiting for?

When I hired on at OIX in 2006, because of my shoulder/knee damage I was required to go to an occupational/physical therapy clinic and be strength tested. I passed everything ok, except for the step thing they had devised to see if I could get in and out of the truck. I couldn't get up on it at all...what was the problem?

They had built a two step system that the first step was 22" from the ground...a little high IMO, but ok...the problem entered in that they had the grab rail at waist height. When I get into the truck...as do most people...I grab the hand rail above my shoulder level...then I grab the steering wheel with my other hand and pull myself up into the truck compensating for the residual damage in my knees.

I told them to take me to a truck and trailer and I would climb the engine, into the truck and the trailer and anything other than pulling a pallet jack or shifting freight. Of course they didn't want to test me in real world applications.

While I got the job, because of the artificial device, I almost did not.

I agree with Dawdles that a company can set any type of hiring requirements they choose. However, historically, most women who enter trucking do so later in life than men do because of family obligations. While some might be able to do the lifting requirements ok, some might not, but would make good drivers being able to either do what ever the job requires other than lifting over their heads, or learning, as I have had to do, to adapt to a way to do whatever is required. Should we or I be held back from a driving position because we cannot lift 75#s above our heads?

Almost all trucking companies in their advertisements have the EEOC disclaimer, m/f/d/v...lifting requirements surely take out the 'd' don't they if not the 'f'? Would a woman or disabled person who could not lift want to work for a flatbedding company or a bedbugger? Most likely not.

I am reminded back in 1982 when I got my first otr driving job with ACB trucking out of N Little Rock AR...the man in the personnel office at the time didn't think that women should be truck drivers unless they ran team with their husbands and preferrably not even then in his mind. Why was he so dead set against women drivers? He told me, "because women cannot unload 40,000#s of 50# sacks of potatoes!"

At the time, I was young, uninjured and buff...I laughed and told him "I don't know what woman you are talking about, but I am as smart as the guys, I would hire a lumper!"

I tell that story because that man's mindset is still there in the industry in many companies minds. Does that show up in outright discrimination where a company refuses to hire a woman because she is a woman? No, because they would get sued, but to put obstacles in the path of many women such as strength testing for whatever reason could IMO be subtle discrimination.

Besides, with so many male drivers out of work, are companies really wanting to hire women drivers? Just a thought from outside the box.

One other thing. Trucking is a dangerous job, drivers are always falling out of a trailer, off of trailers, slipping off their steps, having freight fall out of the doors when they are opened or any other of a 100 things to injure themselves no matter what their physical condition is; no amount of strength testing is ever going to change that. So truthfully what is the point?

Sandy

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The only stupid question is the one you do not ask...

Sandy, while I agree with the a lot of guys are out of work here is my thought.

I just picked up steel coils and had to build the bracework in the trailer, handle a 50# air powered nail gun, yank heavy pieces of wood and stack build and nail. This is not a "normal" load for us. This is something our new flatbed division handles but they had the laod it had to be hauled. The dock guys no longer build the frames. It is driver responsibility and you don't have hours to do it. I deliver tonight and who do you think has to use the crow bar and break down the frame work. I do. You said yourself you just delivered coils and had tpo play with the nail gun

My point is this...the economy is tough. Companies are branching out and that means they are hauling loads that before they would not have. It also means that drivers are going to be asked to do things other than just driving. So what do companies do of a driver calls and says I can't do this. I'm not strong enough to handle the equipment. They have committed to haul the laod and it is a huge economic/reputation impacy to pull the drivers out and hope the next one can handle the job. So what do they do...they hire drivers that can handle all aspects of the job.
Jmo

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(Member I'd 10489 D). If you sit and wait for all the good things in life to come to you...and never have to go through bad times...how do you know you got what you were waiting for?

Dang, the nail gun you used musta been a big one! 50#s? The one at Preciction(cannot spell today) Strip in Tipp City only weights at most 10-15#s and I make many trips carrying a few boards at a time.

Some pallatized coils only ship in dry vans because of how the receiver has their dock set ups. I did a pallatized coil steel dedicated 2 trips a day, 5 days a week from Granite City IL to Moberly MO and the receiver refused to have the coils brought in by flatbed due to his not having side docks or the ability to unload from the ground.

The economy has nothing to do with loads needing bracing. There are many loads that require bracing or securement in a dry van that a driver might have to swing a hammer or use a nail gun along with hauling a little lumber...coils, rolls of paper, aluminum ingot, some barrels, to name a few. I have never been rushed in my securement times by the shipper or in taking it out by the receiver, and being an old flatbedder, trust me, I know how to build a brace! LOL (They laugh at me out at the port in Baltimore because I use so many boards, old pallets and nails on ingot loads! LOL Never had any shift though! :-))

Where there is a will, there is a way and any woman driver worth her salt will figure out how to get the job done even with some form of lack of strength. After the wreck I was in, I bought my own tarps, rachet binders and devised a way to throw straps across tall loads and carried not one, but two ladders so I could try to remain a flatbedder. I could not climb the load tho anymore and I was scared that I would reinjure the shoulder so I quit flatbedding and went to dry van. Because I am an experienced driver with an excellent work history and record, my then company put a dry van on the road for me. Since I left them, because a flatbed company will lose their tails trying to run one dry van, I only go to work for companies that do not require fingerprinting loads or driver assist unloading beyond doing a count.

As far as what a company does: they can make accomodations. This might be just not dispatching someone who cannot for whatever reason, lift 75#s above their heads, on a fingerprint load...it might take the driver themselves paying someone to do the job they cannot do. These reasonable accomodations are required under the American's with Disabilities Act and are just good business because if a company makes reasonable accommodation for someone, they usually end up with a dedicated, loyal employee.

Now, that all being said, the reason that this topic came up was because I have had some women at the TTT who could not, or were scared to try, to pass the strength testing required by some training companies and so decided not to become truckers. Would they have made a good driver outside of having to work on building some body strength, adapt someway so they could still do whatever the job entailed, or have some reasonable accommodations made? Some, yes, in my opinion, some of them would have become good, safe, productive drivers but were intimidated by having to lift that much weight.

If strength testing is required by trucking companies, IMO trucking schools should also strength test before allowing anyone to pay tuition only to find out they cannot be hired because of the inability to lift 75#s above their head or carry 75#s 50 feet repeatedly down a corridor. As in the story that I have related before of the tiny woman who didn't know how to use leverage to pull her hood and was failed during her first skills test, the school should of made sure that she could do what was needed before taking her tuition or taught her better sooner rather than later.

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The only stupid question is the one you do not ask...

Sandy,
I guess I misspoke when I said "economy". The term "freight volume" would have been more appropriate. It is my opinion because of lower freight volumes, companies are diversifying more into areas that they normally would not venture. For example, because of lower freight volumes, the company I work for is not able to offer the 90% no touch or drop/hook freight which what was advertised when we hired on. Now we are maybe 60% no touch or drop and hook. Companies are hauling different loads now that what they used to because the freight is not there.

Because of this lower freight volume and more diversified/different loads, companies are expecting their drivers to be more than just "truck drivers". Of course loads have always needed braced, load locked, loaded and unloaded. But many drivers are not used to doing such work because if it is a different kind of freight than what they normally haul.

Now that being said, do I think that companies should expect their existing drivers to immediately be able to meet the physical requirements...No not necessarily. But they should give their drivers fair warning if they decide to begin testing, so drivers can take the necessary steps to prepare themselves. Companies should also list in their hiring protocol that strength testing is required.

As for a company making accomodations...in my opinion, a company should not have to make accomodations for drivers who were hired as general duty drivers. Our company has hired some drivers knowing they have limitations. Fine. The company made that choice when they hired these folks (and they are great drivers); however, these drivers also know and accept that their miles may be lower than the fleet average. They dont complain and everyone in that situation is happy.

Now that being said, if a driver is hired as a general class driver (meaning htey are able to be dispatched on any and all loads) and then call in and say I cant do the job...well, it is a problem. it is a huge financial loss to the company if that is the only truck in the area. If the driver can't do the job they are dispatched on and hired to do and the company has to pull them out, dispatch another truck to the load and send the driver to another load...well that is plenty of empty miles that have to be driven and the company looses money. In some cases, shippers will charge a fee to the company for delay of loading and the receiver could also penalize the company for late load. (this depends on how contracts are written) With the economy being tough right now, companies aer working on a tight margin and can not afford the unnecessary expense of a driver not able to do the job they were hired to do. '

Finally, the ADA states "An individual with a disability is defined by the ADA as a person who has a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities, a person who has a history or record of such an impairment, or a person who is perceived by others as having such an impairment." It also states that "Title I requires employers with 15 or more employees to provide qualified individuals with disabilities an equal opportunity to benefit from the full range of employment-related opportunities available to others... It restricts questions that can be asked about an applicant's disability before a job offer is made, and it requires that employers make reasonable accommodation to the known physical or mental limitations of otherwise qualified individuals with disabilities" (www.ADA.gov)

Okay so that being said....if a driver is hired and there is no known physical limitation...meaning he does not state at hire that he can not do the physical aspects of the job because of a disability as defined above then no accomodations have to be made. Not being able to lift 75# as required by the company is NOT a disability. if the limitation is not obvious, it is the EMPLOYEES RESPONSIBILITY to inform the employer. If the employer then determines the employee does not meet the job requirements they can offer another position that the person is capable of doing, or make the necessary accomodations for that person to do the job...if they can.

I do agree with you that training facilities should also be doing strength testing for the reasons you have stated. I also think that the term "truck driver" is a misnomer. We do so much more than just drive a truk up and down the highway and people have a perception that when they come to the industry...all they are going to do is cruise up and down the open road is a big fast shiny rig and never ahve to do any real work. So if we could rename ourselves....maybe that would help with the perception.

JMO
susan

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(Member I'd 10489 D). If you sit and wait for all the good things in life to come to you...and never have to go through bad times...how do you know you got what you were waiting for?

Very good points guys! Dawdles you said: "With the economy being tough right now, companies aer working on a tight margin and can not afford the unnecessary expense of a driver not able to do the job they were hired to do. "

The article didn't have anything to do with economy reasons, but with the inane idea that more stringent testing was required to "try and reduce workman's compensation claims." Sorry, but you can do all the testing in the world and it won't change one iota the fact that sh** happens. I am a very limber flexible person. I climb, carry, lift, things that a lot of skinnier people can't. But even I ended up getting hurt in the 10 years I have driven.

1. Took my fogged up eyeglasses off as I could not see. Was closing the trailer doors and looked up to make sure they latched up top and something fell in my eye. I could not get it out! Finally went to the Dr. next am and just as I was catching the taxi to go to the Dr. it finally came out. I still had to get antibiotics and a tetanus shot as I had scratched my cornea. How does increased strength testing affect their stats with this injury? It doesn't.

2. I was dollying down, the bar suddenly caught and stopped and I hit my hand on it. I thought I had broken it. Still nothing that strength testing would have found....

3. My company has the runs so tight, that Chris woke me up and needed me to take over driving, he was suddenly ill. We usually never have time to actually stop and get ready for work while sitting still. You have to get ready rolling down the road. I had to climb up and was suspended in the air trying to get clean clothes out of the duffle bag, when he hit a huge dip in CO. I had myself braced, but not for that! I hyper flexed and pulled a muscle that joined my leg to my pelvis. I always stretch and warm up the first thing when I wake up, but that morning, I had to get ready ASAP. So I am injured.

How would increasing strength testing going to try and eliminate drivers with those types of injuries? It doesn't. If companies are thinking of reducing the number of no-touch freight due to the economy, they need to let us know so we can be prepared or go elsewhere. I would never apply to a job expecting accommodations when I know that job to be one that I may not be able to do. Actually I take that back, I did just fine hauling Chemical Tanker, no problem. Until the summer, then the heat combined with an allergy I didn't even think about reared it's ugly head. PPE and an latex allergy don't go together in the summertime. They were willing to make accommodations for me, and allow me to haul the chemical and tar loads that didn't require PPE. But I felt guilty doing that. The tar loads especially were the "breaks" for all of us. I didn't want to take that from my fellow drivers. They even offered me an office position, but I could not afford the low pay. So I went elsewhere. But they will always have workman's comp issues related to lifting and strains until we do it

Here is where I feel it is discriminatory when you start requiring drivers to lift more weight or duck walk down the hallway when it is NOT required as a part of their job. So let me reiterate, if it is a part of your job to unload trailers, duck walk down hallways and constantly lift weight above your head to load trailers, then I understand the strength and physical testing requirements. I know our company hauls tire loads. Your required to tailgate the load. But excuse me, but I think that is pulling weight down, not lifting it? Since when do drivers load trailers? I loaded trailers for UPS, but that was my job, not the drivers? I just braced a copper roll load, then upon delivering had to rip up my work. Where in this scenario does it require me to pick up anything over 50 lbs? Sorry Dawdles, but I am pretty sure the gun only weighed at the most 15#. Unless you were using a jackhammer? LMAO! Just teasin ya girl! The wood is heavy, but not 50 lbs? Unless your carrying all of the wood at one time maybe? But they will always have workman's comp issues related to lifting and strains until we do it everyday. If the entire year you sit at your desk at work, never have to do anything more strenuous than walking to the bathroom quickly, then suddenly your company expects you to unload a trailer. Your going to have issues. Your going to pull something or end up having to recover for the next 3 days.


However, I don't think that is really what the companies are doing. Companies want drivers that are all paid the same, we want paid more based on our safe record and experience, just like any other field. Especially larger companies will begin to reduce your miles as you get more experience when they have a larger pool of drivers to choose from. You don't think they are also thinking that another way to reduce the number of "more experienced" drivers is to begin making limitations that usually only apply to "experienced" aka older drivers? This then reduces the driver pool, perpetuating the myth that there is driver shortage. Then they begin to lobby to allow Canadian and Mexican drivers into the US, further bringing down wages. Due to the gluttony of drivers, it is just an excuse for the companies to try and exclude someone that can physically do the job, but not play their little game. Follow the money.

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